Blue48
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 5:07:11 PM
WHAT A MESS!
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Kimmunicate
All-Star Author
San Francisco
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 1:53:01 PM
Much like everyone else, I'd be very interested in seeing the final outcome to what is causing all these accidents. This sounds just like the Audi 5000 recall in the 80's which had the same "unintended acceleration" problem. In the end, they installed the "automatic shift lock feature" found that resolved the problem. As it turns out, people were stepping on the gas pedal when they intended to step on the brake. =\
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AnObserver
Champion Author
New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 12:47:00 PM
While this crash in California is a dramatic (and tragic) incident, it is hard to define a systemic defect. In fact, there still is not conclusive evidence of a specific cause of the current problem.
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MUSTANGSRUS
Champion Author
Ontario
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:58:36 AM
I don't wish to minimize this problem in the least, but it kind of reminds me of calling in a TV repair person because your set keeps going on the blink. But, every time he shows up, nothing happens to the set. It could be months before the true cause of these accidents is finally found.
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DustyHorse
Champion Author
Virginia
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:36:46 AM
According to tests conducted by Car And Driver magazine. Brakes always win over full throttle acceleration. They tested three different cars including a V-6 Camry. The brakes were able to stop a V-6 Camry going 100 MPH, while at full throttle in 435 feet.
Check out the full article at:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
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Lenguado
Champion Author
Orlando
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:28:14 AM
Sorry 'BlackGumTree' - but my point IS the discussion.
If we used your solution - Ford, Chrysler, Chevrolet, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac, etc, etc, etc.. SHOULD NOT EXIST right now because over the decades, they have ALL done the exact same thing - trying to sweep their problems under the rug, making a calculation that paying off a few lawsuits is cheaper than fixing a demonstrated defect. Nothing new with Toyota here.
And I am NOT DEFENDING them for doing it either. You can attack and malign me all you want - while ignoring the point - but you provide no counter point that the other auto manufacturers haven't done the same thing over many decades, because you can't. (And that just means that you cede the argument to me.)
Point in fact - as of right now - there is NO "KNOWN FLAW IN THE DESIGN WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED BY THE MANUFACTURER WHEN FIRST DISCOVERED" as you SPECULATE. That has NOT yet been proven.
All you can say is that there is suspicion that there have been a number of incidents that point to a possible flaw - somewhere. But NO ONE, not any investigator NOR anyone in the Govt investigating this, as well as Toyota engineers, can point to what is causing the SUSPECTED problems. Some of the incidents CERTAINLY DO seem to point to a flaw in either the mechanical design or the software, or even a combination of the two. But nothing proven yet.
Besides the point, that these types of issues and incidents HAVE and CAN happen with any manufacturer who implements 'drive by wire' technology in their automobiles. But you aren't hearing of them since the media isn't hyping them - and CONGRESS isn't holding hearings about them. Did you know that Pontiac (GM anyone??) is having similar problems with some of their cars - RIGHT NOW???? Though I would guess that you are probably ignorant of these facts, because I suspect that you don't understand the technology or care about any of the other manufacturers.
I submit that the only folks promulgating 'Conspiracy Theories' here are 'BlackGumTree' and 'mreiff'...
Peace Out...
"ARBEIT MACHT FREI"
'Hope & Change'
[Edited by: Lenguado at 3/15/2010 11:31:35 AM EST]
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REVLAW
Champion Author
San Antonio
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:22:12 AM
Getting a little "heated' in the forum. WyrelessMike has a thoughtful comment worth reading in entirety. Lenguado sets forth valid thoughts and frustrations that echo those of many americans. Perhaps we should all remember we are all "in this together" when the "whole scheme of things" is viewed. Perhaps truthful and responsible governments and corporations, accountability of governmental and corporate bodies, and truthful unbiased media coverage of key issues would be helpful. Anyone think that is possible?
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Lenguado
Champion Author
Orlando
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:11:57 AM
mreiff - Nope. Lenguado is just pointing out the TOTAL HYPOCRICY in the media - and a lot of the people posting here - about folks, including our government, jumping on the MONEY band wagon.
Whether you want to admit it to yourself or not, our Benevolent Feral Government doesn’t just have an ‘apparent’ conflict of interest – but an ACTUAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST - in holding hearings about these claims against Toyota, while OWNING 60% of GM. Those are facts not in dispute.
It is also most likely the case that MOST of the recent claims about issues with Toyotas are made up by the claimants who are jumping onto the GRAVY TRAIN to hopefully get some PAYOLA out of the deal. Not facts, but opinion. Guessing the facts will come out in the courts – but likely swept under the rug. Toyota will likely just pay off these folks to try to make the problem just go away. JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER CAR MANUFACTURERS – Ford, Chrysler, Chevrolet, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac, etc, etc, etc.. – have done over the decades.
No conspiracy here. Just tellin it like it is.
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BlackGumTree
Champion Author
Virginia
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:05:56 AM
Lenguado is attempting to divert the discussion. This is not about dying in vehicles due to any cause but to known flaws in design which should have been fixed by the manufacturer when first discovered.
People in upper management made the decision to ignore the problem. These people should be prosecuted, and banned from ever working again as a manager. That would make other managers think twice before ignoring a problem that results in the injury and/or death of people or the destruction of property.
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VTROCK
Champion Author
Detroit
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 11:00:43 AM
It is simply not good business to have people dying in your product.
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Hunter114
Champion Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:48:48 AM
There's no telling how long it will take to clean up this mess.
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RoadhogMA
Champion Author
Boston
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:46:19 AM
It wont go away . Bad for Toyota .
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erfstruck
Sophomore Author
Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:46:10 AM
I had a Ford Tempo once in a while would just start to take off when sitting at a red lite went back to Ford dealer four times finely they hooked something up to my computer ran for three days, did it twice while on computer ended up getting a new car. when i did make a stop i set the emergency break and had both feet on the brake
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WyrelessMike
All-Star Author
Little Rock
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:45:26 AM
It's interesting to me how much society has changed in regards to what they will defend and what they will not.
Many years ago, Ralph Nader wrote a book entitled "Unsafe At Any Speed" in which he attacked GM as a company and specifically the Corvair, one of GM's most popular vehicles at that time.
Americans were so ready to burn GM, the book was a bestseller regardless that many of the claims in the book, especially those regarding the Corvair, were proven false. Still, GM had over 100 lawsuits filed against them regarding this car, and so was only reaping what it had sewn. Nader went on to create a market watchdog magazine called "Consumer Reports," which, to this day, continues to publish with bias against American auto companies.
Not so many years ago, a filmmaker named Michael Moore followed Nader's recipe for personal fame by going after the very same American auto giant who turned his home town of Flint into a ghost town by closing a plant. Again, Americans embraced the anti-GM sentiment and have made an A-list star of him. GM, once again, paid for making decisions that hurt Americans, even if it wasn't directly related to the automobiles it made.
Today, Toyota has been exposed for trying to suppress knowledge of mechanical defects that have since resulted in the recall of many millions of automobiles. These are not just quality issues, but real, life-threatening safety issues, and the boards here are littered with, once again, sentiment against American auto manufacturers and in defense of the Japanese auto giant. I have read too many posts wondering where the checks on American car manufacturers are. Can these be serious? Is there a generation of Americans that does not know the scrutiny American auto manufacturers have been under? Do they not know that the levels of government regulation actually helped all the American car manufacturers into bankruptcy, or near bankruptcy many times over the years? The American auto industry has made mistakes like this before, and it has been made to answer for them.
I believe Toyota, in general, makes a decent, quality automobile. However, to hide such dangerous lapses in quality is gross negligence, and the company is currently getting what it has earned as a major producer of products in America. Defend them if you will, but enough with the half-a**ed comparisons to the American companies or party affiliations of those who may or may not be seeking explanations. Just like the American auto industry had done in the past, they made this bed, and it is theirs, alone. Let them lie in it.
Just like those that came before them, they will survive, but they must be made to answer just like the American car manufacturers did before them.
[Edited by: WyrelessMike at 3/15/2010 10:47:31 AM EST]
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Don20
Champion Author
Oklahoma City
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:44:58 AM
But there are other stories of lives lost, families forever changed, listed anonymously in the complaint database run by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Many incidents predate by years the crash that killed Officer Mark Saylor and his family, and passed with little notice even as they became part of a string of incidents...
It is going to be a long time before this is all ironed out. Don't think they really know what the problem is, but should be talking to the people that have survived accidents...
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unicornpmb
Champion Author
Buffalo
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:44:52 AM
It will be awhile before this gets straighten out.
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Italianman
All-Star Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:43:44 AM
The whole thing makes me sick.
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THEDodgeman
Champion Author
Denver
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:41:56 AM
HOW ABOUT THE COUPLE OF PEOPLE IN JAIL BECAUSE THEY Caused injuryies in accident involving this JUNK MADE BY TOYOTA.
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Lizzylou
Champion Author
Stockton
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:40:26 AM
Questions also as to how long has this problem been hidden???
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cnet1
Champion Author
Arizona
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:39:32 AM
i agree with top gunn below - lets move on
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mreiff
Champion Author
Louisville
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:36:08 AM
Lenguado must be abother conspiracy theorist!
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TopGunn
Champion Author
Baltimore
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:34:51 AM
Repeat, repeat, repeat. Time to move on to a new subject.
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ACTown
All-Star Author
Oregon
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:34:48 AM
IT is truly a major concern for all drivers. I feel for the family and anyone else that is involved in accidents.
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madison8359
Champion Author
Cleveland
Posts:2,744
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:34:42 AM
What Toyota has and is doing in this area is criminal, in my opinion, and there is no excuse.
These vehicles need to be removed from the road now, before another crash or death happens.
No excuses, no delays.
If you look around you on the roads you will always see a Toyota near, in front, behind or next to you, this puts all of us in harms way.
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jd2009
Champion Author
Honolulu
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:33:47 AM
The lawyers will only get richer
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DrLyon
Champion Author
Michigan
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:33:25 AM
Questions to be answered by further investigation...
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kyrunner
Champion Author
Lexington
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:32:09 AM
I agree with Lenguado on this one.
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arnerator
Champion Author
Seattle
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:31:49 AM
These stories are very troubling.
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Helms
Champion Author
Fort Worth
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:31:16 AM
the tragedy is how they tried to cover up their duplicity.....hey ohms go back to watchign "dancing with the stars"
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MVP1
Sophomore Author
New York
Posts:229
Points:649,230
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:30:53 AM
The decisions were probably made the same way as highway planning and maintenance decisions. A dollar value is assigned to a life and if the cost of making a change or adding a feature exceeds the life value times the probable number of lives saved the dollars are not spent. A general example would be a $2/car expense times a million cars would require 6 lives at $350K per life to make it cost effective... if it only saves 5 lives it's "cheaper" to incur 5 lives * $350K = $1,750,000... Perhaps someone here knows what the actuarial figures are that are currently in use?
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OHMS
Champion Author
Orange County
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:28:28 AM
most people die in bed; we'd better start an investigation into beds.
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Lenguado
Champion Author
Orlando
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:28:14 AM
Hmmmm, how about all those millons of accidents where people died - in Ford, Chrysler, GMC, Chevrolet, etc, etc, etc, vehicles?????
Guess since Obama now owns the dying (dead because it is literally bankrupt actually) UAW Auto Company (aka GM), no one is going to look into them.....
Follow The MONEY & The POWER.....
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egd
Champion Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:26:44 AM
there is a problem and people have died Toyota must deal with properly
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gagal31525
Veteran Author
Georgia
Posts:423
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Joined:Feb 2008
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:25:48 AM
Would not wish this on anyone. Sad that someone had to die to get them to recall the vehicles.
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TopGunn
Champion Author
Baltimore
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:25:40 AM
Without proof, who do you believe??
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Spectre5
Rookie Author
Virginia Beach
Posts:56
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Joined:May 2008
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:25:12 AM
A Roush Stage 3 Mustang has a race-ready $2500 Big Brake Kit (consisting of 14-Inch two-piece slotted front rotors, factory size slotted rear rotors, four-piston front calipers and factory rear calipers). The fact that they stopped a full-throttle Mustang at 100 mph using the brakes is irrevelevant, those brakes would stop a frieght train!
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twiper1
Champion Author
San Diego
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:24:56 AM
Still i would like to see the CEO fry.
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FBI2991
Champion Author
Michigan
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:24:40 AM
Lawyers will be the big winners
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RocketmanC99
Champion Author
Missouri
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:24:34 AM
You'd think a CA Highway Patrol officer would know how to handle an emergency situation such as this. He had 52 seconds. Most people in a car crash have just a fraction of a second.
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mmproteus
Veteran Author
Ohio
Posts:271
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:23:12 AM
Booring... I'm so over the Toyota story. I would buy one tomorrow if I needed a new car.
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Liberty2000
All-Star Author
Indianapolis
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:23:07 AM
Toyota is definitely taking a beating on this!
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RetiredVP
Veteran Author
New Hampshire
Posts:376
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:22:36 AM
Sorry for them, but surprise a cop didn't have the where with all to handle this. I am sure he must have had some enhanced training in handling emergency situations.
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goalie1950
Champion Author
Phoenix
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:20:27 AM
It isestimated that Toyota will spend in excess of three billion dollars to settle individual & class action lawsuits that will result from all these accidents, injuries & deaths from their cars. It ain't over 'til it's over.
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206awd250
Champion Author
Seattle
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:17:22 AM
The problem needs to be fixed correctly the first time. Hopefully Toyota will not make the same business decisions again and if it means losing the title of #1 automaker so be it. Safety should be #1 priority.
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Tundralimited2009
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:16:08 AM
Accidents
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Bigwaynef
Champion Author
South Carolina
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:11:41 AM
Sorry but I noticed alot of people in here think you have all the time in the world to think, when the problems actually happens. It's not easy for some people, I sometimes get severe headaches from thinking to much, either that are I get whacked upside the head!
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jorobins538
Veteran Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:11:41 AM
maybe if car companies treated these "incidents" as important instead of the cost of doing business . . .
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Pucked
Champion Author
Fort Worth
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:09:01 AM
Hey LilRedWagonIN -
It's an alleged problem when it happens to some one else - it is a tragedy when it happens to you!
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sleepyt
Champion Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:08:36 AM
It truly astonishes me that a CHP officer wouldn't know to shut down the engine.
And the problem, folks, is that there is enough difference between each incident to make it extremely difficult to find the "culprit" in these accidents.
And even if there is a software or mechanical flaw, it is also entirely possible that some of these incidents WERE driver error.
We just don't know... but that is why the courts should be very careful of certifying a class action against Toyota.
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brus282
Champion Author
North Carolina
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:08:29 AM
electronic problems are the most difficult to repeat, not surprised they have forgotten those who have died due to this problem. Makes you wonder what else they sacrificed to get to the top, thanks to our media and the anti american buyers
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dopster
Champion Author
Toledo
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 10:06:50 AM
Kind of a good example that disproves the hoax theory.
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