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Millions in red-light camera fines could be returned

Florida Sun-Sentinel -- Lawyers will argue before the Florida Supreme Court early next year whether the cities of Orlando and Aventura had the right to install red-light cameras before they were approved by the Legislature.

The stakes are higher than simply deciding whether their actions were legal. If the court rules against the two cities, it could set the stage for a "claw-back" of millions of dollars in fines paid by motorists caught driving through an intersection after the light turned red.

And if Orlando and Aventura, which is in South Florida, have to issue refunds, other cities could forced to follow suit.

Getting at that cash is the ultimate goal of attorneys from a West Palm Beach law firm who will square off with the cities in Tallahassee, probably in February or March.



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Submitted Nov 12, 2012 By: BurntOrange
Category: Daily News Article Discussions > Topics Add to favorite topics  
Author Topic: Millions in red-light camera fines could be returned Back to Topics
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2012 12:43:43 AM

gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - I still don't see how still pics could prove that I didn't stop. If I stop for even 1 second I did stop, so I would say that if it isn't a video then it would have to be a high speed camera so that they could show that with the pic intervals & vehicle position in each that there is no way that I could have stopped."

I refer you to this Wikipedia article.
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SovietSunrise
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 7:39:39 PM

Revenue-generating PUNK TRASH!!!!!11
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 5:33:15 PM

rjhenn - I still don't see how still pics could prove that I didn't stop. If I stop for even 1 second I did stop, so I would say that if it isn't a video then it would have to be a high speed camera so that they could show that with the pic intervals & vehicle position in each that there is no way that I could have stopped.

I do realize that with today's computer technology that anything is possible so what you say is within the realm of possibility as far as pics being altered.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2012 3:54:38 AM

gazguzzler11 - "I don't think that a still picture would suffice because if I stop & then make a right on the red how would this still photo prove in court that I didn't first stop?"

They typically take two pictures which, based on the timestamps, show you driving through.

"The photo evidence has to clearly show your vehicle not stopping as it should with the red light also clearly showing in the same picture. If it doesn't show this I don't see how they could get a conviction in court because this would be the only evidence that would support the RLC ticket being issued in the first place."

It would be simple to take the pictures, swap the red and green lights in the picture, and change the green to red. It would also be easy to manipulate the timestamps so it looked like you drove right through.
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:39:16 PM

rjhenn - OK, so you are now saying that somebody might digitally alter a picture to show you running a red that you stopped for. Any time that I have seen something on TV regarding a red light runner it is a video clearly showing the car not stopping at the wide white stop line as it continues through the light, many times making a right turn.

I don't think that a still picture would suffice because if I stop & then make a right on the red how would this still photo prove in court that I didn't first stop?

The photo evidence has to clearly show your vehicle not stopping as it should with the red light also clearly showing in the same picture. If it doesn't show this I don't see how they could get a conviction in court because this would be the only evidence that would support the RLC ticket being issued in the first place.
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:30:09 PM

honda0105 - Sorry to hear that you suffered because of another driver not paying attention. I apologize for accusing you of doing something that you didn't do.

The whole point of my post, as you now know, is to explain that the RLC is never responsible for an MVC, as I have seen many people try to profess. It is their poor/illegal driving habits that are the cause.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 2:35:03 AM

gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - OK. You now need to explain to me how this picture that you're referring to is going to show you running the red, because that is what it has to show, if you stopped for it."

The photos are digital. It would be no trick at all to change which light is on from the green one to the red one.

Assuming they actually show the light at all.
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honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2012 12:07:10 AM

gaz: didn't say that **I** am rear ending. However, I have been rear ended before by ppl not paying attention. It doesn't matter if it's not my fault, it still is injury to myself and my property (vehicle).
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 3:21:22 PM

honda0105 - I have heard this lame excuse about RLCs causing rear end collisions so many times that I have stopped laughing at this pathetic attempt to explain your bad driving habits. A RLC has NEVER caused an MVC. These MVCs are caused by one of the following bad/illegal driving habits: 1) speeding; 2) following too close; 3) not adjusting your driving to the road conditions; or 4) not paying attention to the traffic.

Anytime that you rear end the car in front of you I would suggest that you would have a hard time shifting the blame to an inanimate object, such as a RLC.

Consider this. I'm driving own the road. A kid runs out in front of me. I hit the brakes & stop. You rear end me. Whose fault is this? It is 100% yours because if you weren't violating any or all of the above 4 points you would have been able to safely stop. Now apply this same set of events to me stopping at an intersection. The rules of driving didn't change so the cause of this rear end MVC is you, not the RLC.

You can't always blame somebody else for your bad driving habits. If you can't be responsible for your actions then do all of us a favor & take a cab or a bus.
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 3:08:11 PM

rjhenn - OK. You now need to explain to me how this picture that you're referring to is going to show you running the red, because that is what it has to show, if you stopped for it.
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honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 6:01:42 AM

definitely increase rear ender collisions.
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clpassenubye
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2012 12:31:30 AM

I hope so these cameras are just vailed scams by city and local governments. Studies show that they increase fender bender accidents and while they decrease the running of red lights its because many drivers alter their travel to avoid the lights with cameras so the stats are skewed.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 9:08:09 PM

gazguzzler11 - "The camera can't say different if the picture doesn't support it, which it has to to get the conviction."

All they need is a picture of your license plate and a picture of a red light, with the same timestamp.
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 5:16:31 PM

rjhenn - I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

If you didn't run a red there is no way that they will be able to show anything from any camera that you did. If there is some malfunction in their system that you get issued a ticket when you didn't run a red, they will have no evidence to back up the ticket. This is what my point is.

The camera can't say different if the picture doesn't support it, which it has to to get the conviction.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 1:32:07 AM

gazguzzler11 - "rjhenn - If you go to court to challenge the ticket they have to be able to show their conclusive evidence that you did run the red. Therefore, my statement stands. If their system malfunctions & sends me a ticket there will be no evidence that I ran a red because I just don't do it."

But the camera says different. And it's the "conclusive evidence" that the court is looking for.
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honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2012 12:03:34 AM

yea, like the government and its enforcers are giving up revenue... not!
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2012 2:49:57 PM

rjhenn - If you go to court to challenge the ticket they have to be able to show their conclusive evidence that you did run the red. Therefore, my statement stands. If their system malfunctions & sends me a ticket there will be no evidence that I ran a red because I just don't do it.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2012 1:14:13 AM

gazguzzler11 - "My choice is not to run reds therefore no RLC will ever cost me anything."

Assuming it works the way it's supposed to work and doesn't issue you a ticket anyway.
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LetemEatCake
Champion Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 10:31:27 PM


I had no idea that traffic cameras were so lucrative for the cities.

How do the cities determine how many lives were saved when the cameras were installed. Sounds like a guess to me!
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gazguzzler11
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 3:59:25 PM

I'm getting a real kick out of some of the posts.

Some are saying that if there is no MVC that the ticket should be nuked because there was no traffic issue caused by running the red. This sure makes a lot of sense.

Some are saying that if the driver can't be ID'd then they shouldn't have to pay the fine because there is no proof that the owner was the driver. This is no different than a parking ticket where there is no driver ID. It's your car, you have to be responsible for it, so it is up to you to pay the fine or have the person who was driving it pony up.

Then there are those calling this a tax. This is not a tax because a tax is something imposed by the govt that you have no choice in paying. In this case every driver has a choice. My choice is not to run reds therefore no RLC will ever cost me anything.
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SUNOIL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 8:31:01 AM

I gotta think that the money has been spent so where would they get the cash to pay it back????
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KrsnaDragon
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 5:38:33 AM

I'd rather read an article about consumers working together to save on gas.
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RonElp
All-Star Author El Paso

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 4:50:28 AM

South San Francisco had to give back 1.4 Million back in 2010. Judges ruled them illegal.
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TXryder
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:27:57 AM

good news
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NOTSOGRN
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:27:44 AM

.
.
Just smile & wave... ; )
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SHEP20715
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:23:10 AM

It is not a problem for cities if they were properly approved

[Edited by: SHEP20715 at 11/13/2012 2:24:06 AM EST]
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skybiker
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:20:53 AM

These things are diabolical..
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DozenSpeed
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:18:15 AM

I don't mind the marked cameras so much as I do the skeevy signal timing trying to frustrate you into running them. It's speed cameras I really hate, so fight these now to avoid the prevelance of those.
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imran78
Champion Author Calgary

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:18:07 AM

Old news
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rocket_ron
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:13:17 AM

Wow, cities will think twice before installing them if they have the risk of giving all of the fines back.
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CountryPeddler
Sophomore Author Tennessee

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:10:55 AM

Well anyway, the question is, since the camera's have gone in these cities, have the Red Light runners gone down?
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gmcgas
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:55 AM

fine
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CountryPeddler
Sophomore Author Tennessee

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:48 AM

ok then........I'm for changing the red lights to blue....maybe pink....LOL
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Rooster922
Champion Author Wilmington

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:08:13 AM

I got thousand invested? Not on the camera, stupid. In FINES !
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1fulltank
Champion Author Buffalo

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:05:09 AM

Many will be anxious to see the outcome. Not just the cities involved but perhaps even Constitutional bystanders.
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Matt G
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:05:08 AM

Good, I think they area rip off
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kiss4afrog
All-Star Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:58:58 AM

Why do you hope they get their fines back?? The guilty were guilty of making an informed choice to run the light. Why is it bad they get a ticket ?? What if someone ran a light and ran over your wife, husband or kid. How would you feel about it them.
The people who were ticketed chose to break the law. They are bitching because they were caught. Drive according to your states, counties and cities traffic laws and they could have six cameras on every corner and you won't have to worry about it.
Revenue generators, I'm glad for them and that someone who is doing something unsafe is being brought to task before they T bone me.
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slkmoo
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:56:00 AM

wow
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Bezalel
Champion Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:51:47 AM

"This is not the Soviet Union. "

The refund will cost money to process, too.
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Karisholman
Veteran Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:51:18 AM

I do not believe they are constitutional
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snky2k
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:50:13 AM

Those cameras should be banned. This is not the Soviet Union.
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hubcapLA
Champion Author Louisiana

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:49:39 AM

Anything to get rid of them. Most are questionable at best.
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unicornpmb
Champion Author Buffalo

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:47:09 AM

No winners. Fine money will be gone. Will have to raise taxes for pay back.
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streetcars
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:36:54 AM

Oops.
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bobdec
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:32:06 AM

U hope they get their fines back
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SaturnSC
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:29:17 AM

Yay
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Packman3231
All-Star Author Oregon

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:28:06 AM

if the money was being used constructively we wouldn't complain, but seeing the results of tax money in the hands of government one has to wonder.
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pa79th
Champion Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:25:57 AM

What does this have to do with the price of gasoline?
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comprof
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:20:46 AM

Just a way to get more money for lawmakers to waste. Rice study showed they generate more wrecks.
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Bruno44
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:19:11 AM

From past studies, I agree with DirtDauber.
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